more refined Reverb Question....

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BLista
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more refined Reverb Question....

Post by BLista » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:09 pm

been applyin some of the tips from about a week ago.

LOVELY!

brought this question to mind....

when i'm mixin down, i use my speccie analyser to "fit" frequencies which overlap etc etc etc. as do you all....

however, if using a send with reverb which u then apply, for example, to most of your percs - you cannot define the high/lo-cut for each individual piece of instrumentation.....meaning that any reverberation applied, all fits within a certain frequency range.....

how do people tackle this? do you just cut below a certain freq on your verb plug and let the whole range above the cut play? or are there any clever little tricks that you wanna divulge, at risk of revealing your secrets.... :lol:

it's a tiny detail, but one which i reckon would make an enormous difference.....
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Re: more refined Reverb Question....

Post by Tarekith » Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:06 pm

when i'm mixin down, i use my speccie analyser to "fit" frequencies which overlap etc etc etc. as do you all....

>>I never use a spectrum analyzer when mixing down, just my ears and the peak meter on the master channel. <<<

however, if using a send with reverb which u then apply, for example, to most of your percs - you cannot define the high/lo-cut for each individual piece of instrumentation.....meaning that any reverberation applied, all fits within a certain frequency range.....

>>>In general your are adding so little reverb to each part, that it probably doesn't matter much IMO. IF you are swamping your parts in reverb, then you might have to worry about this. Most people WANT the reverb to sound the same on all parts, as the (primariy) point of reverb os to make certain elements sound like a cohesive part that came from a defineable acoustic space. <<<

how do people tackle this? do you just cut below a certain freq on your verb plug and let the whole range above the cut play?

>>> Basically. It depends on the reverb and the use of course. I tend to place an EQ on the send track prior to the reverb, and cut out anything below 100Hz going to the reverb. Prevents low end clutter from building up due to the verb, and keeps things "airy". Horses for courses though, uit's not rocket science so just go with what sounds good to YOU. <<<
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Post by Graham Campbell » Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:02 pm

well reverbs are something I'm doubting myself on at the moment but I'm pretty sure i know the basics quite well, first, I usually have a long verb on a bus for my pads, leads whatever, and if I have a drum verb at all, I put it on the drum buss that is the sum of all drum elements. I always roll off at 200 hz as I want mono compatibilty below this, people may correct me on this as I haven't had a vinyl release as of yet, but I've read that this is necessary unless you want your track to sound quite different when pressed to vinyl as the everything below (i've heard as high as 300 hundred) though I'm more of the mind to roll off at 260hz is necessary to be in mono. Sorry I'm wandering in my thoughts. As Tarekith mentioned you don't want reverb muddying up your low end so I usually roll off everything below 200 hz in my Space Designer (I'm on Logic 7.1.1). Think of Reverb as Glue, it's there to add continuity to your mix, to put your song elements into a space, so I don't mess with it much other than setting it up and leaving, it, I also don't send much to it as when I master the track it comes up so a general rule of thumbs is less is more. Hope this helps, cheers,

Graham
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Post by Tarekith » Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:07 pm

You don't always need reverb either. Delays can create space too. I haven't used a reverb on one of my tunes in months probably.

Just a reminder that it's not essential, only use it if you have a reason to use it.
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Post by BLista » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:24 am

Tarekith wrote:You don't always need reverb either. Delays can create space too. I haven't used a reverb on one of my tunes in months probably.

Just a reminder that it's not essential, only use it if you have a reason to use it.
interestingly enough, i've "just" discovered distict advantages to this...and the effect varies wildly depending on which delay I use. Also, it seems to need less EQ tweaking/creates less mess in the midranges...

So, would anyone like to run through the "hows" and "whys" of compressing reverb? (Joe, you got me started on this train of thought)
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Post by Tarekith » Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:01 pm

B-Lister wrote: So, would anyone like to run through the "hows" and "whys" of compressing reverb?

Compressing reverb? That's new one to me, aside for a special effect, why would you want to compress reverb? It's dynamic range should always be less than source audio feeding it.
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Post by Graham Campbell » Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:31 pm

I've compressed reverb in the past on a track or two, but never for a breaks tune, when I did it, it was as Tarekith wrote, as a special effect, to get that benny benassi pump to the track, it was using sidechain compression linked to the kick (or the buss being fed by the kick, i"m on Logic) the sidechained compressor comes after the verb and you can get a pretty cool pump effect to it, if you want check out Broken Technology for some serious compressed verbs on the first breakdown on my myspace page or for a more subtle overall compressed verb (along with a lot of the rest of the track check out Skyscrapers. I find it's only really useful though for putting the kick at the front of the mix, which is good for big room progressive, but for breaks I haven't found it as valuable, also for breaks you'd need to sidechain to a bus with the kick & snare if you want it to make sense in the mix. Cheers,

Graham

ps - check out Mylo's remix of No More Conversation for a good example of pure reverb compression for the purpose of an effect, or Benny Benassi's "Satisfaction" which is really where it all got started...
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Post by BLista » Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:37 pm

Graham Campbell wrote:I've compressed reverb in the past on a track or two, but never for a breaks tune, when I did it, it was as Tarekith wrote, as a special effect, to get that benny benassi pump to the track, it was using sidechain compression linked to the kick (or the buss being fed by the kick, i"m on Logic) the sidechained compressor comes after the verb and you can get a pretty cool pump effect to it, if you want check out Broken Technology for some serious compressed verbs on the first breakdown on my myspace page or for a more subtle overall compressed verb (along with a lot of the rest of the track check out Skyscrapers. I find it's only really useful though for putting the kick at the front of the mix, which is good for big room progressive, but for breaks I haven't found it as valuable, also for breaks you'd need to sidechain to a bus with the kick & snare if you want it to make sense in the mix. Cheers,

Graham
I sidechain kicks/snares to my bass, either just to lower the signal slightly, or with a compressor to just duck the peak areas where they both peak, but i'm not sure how this relates to reverb, seeing as I never really use reverb on a kik, or bass for that matter?

I might try sidechain compressing a synth pattern to one of my reverb sends tonight.....using both signals...see what happens
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Post by Graham Campbell » Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:59 pm

Hi B-Lister,

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear enough I don't think. You wouldn't actually be sending your kick or your snare to this reverb you would instead just be using the signal from a copy of your kick or kick&snare to trigger when the compressor on the reverb buss is activated...below I've attached a wicked little tutorial that was posted on the Logic Pro Discussion forum a long while back by a knowledgeable engineer, this can have some pretty amazing effects...like I said check broken technology, my track, (it's on my-myspace link) and the first breakdown highlights how crazy this effect can work.

I'm so entrenched in Logic it's hard to explain any other way, but it is pretty awesome once you get the hang of it. Check out the explanation below and if you still don't get what I"m saying I can continue to explain, bye the way, what DAW do you use? Cheers,

Graham

"The Benny Benassi Tip: [THIS IS IN LOGIC SPEAK but shoudl work for all others in theory]

Another great TIP for clarity and room 4 vocals:

1) In environment, put a COMPRESSOR plugin on bus 1, side chain it to bus 10 (bus numbers are for reference only), deactive the "auto gain" check box [try not deactivating it!!! and you can get crazy effects]

2) deactive the output of bus 10

3) in Arrange, create a copy of your drums: if it's house or techno, the kick drum is enough, with hip hop + breaks bounce an audiofile of kick+snare (no hihats).
Put the region at position 1.1.1.1 in your arrangement, then hide it (and forget it) with "H" button

4) route the output of this audio track (at 0 db) to BUS 10

5) now turn the output of the DELAY RETURNS, LONG REVERB RETURNS, PADS, SOUND BEDS, FXs to BUS 1

6) playing the song back, you will notice a "pump" effect on those sounds, leaving the kick and snare almost "naked". Now you have serious headroom for the lead sounds (melodies: synths+vocals)

7) adjust attack, release and threshold of the compressor plugin to taste, according to the music style

The infamous "benny benassi" pumping style was achieved this way.
You can try to assign to bus 1 even the melodic parts, with unpredictable results, sometimes.

If you want a more dramatic pump on certain parts, put a compressor on their channels, sidechain to bus 10 and adjust the threshold lowering it. "
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Post by foxington » Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:28 pm

8)

nice!
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Post by Graham Campbell » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:47 pm

yeah man a few of the Logic guru's on that site basically outlined this as THE technique for making tracks sound pro and I can definitely say when you do this (for me i only use it on my 4 on the floor tracks) your track just instanstly starts grooving with itself, all the elements that may have sounded a bit seperate or unnatural become a part of a cohesive booty shakin machine! have fun with it,

Graham

ps - and check out my tracks, I'm aching for some feedback ;) shameless I know
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Post by foxington » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:43 am

will have to work out how to apply it to live 5 ;)

will check the tunes ASAP...
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Post by Graham Campbell » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:31 am

as long as Live 5 has sidechain capabilities then it should be possible, good luck, it's a lot of fun, the one thing to remember is try all sorts of combinations with the Attack and Release on the Compressor and I was using like 8:1 ratio just for the effect purpose, break the conventions on this one, some times super fast release and mid-slow release or the complete opposite worked great for me, you WANT that pumping in this instance as long as it's rhythmic, cheers,

Graham
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Post by Ren » Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:29 am

I think what Graham mentioned is a form of 'ducking', we tried this recently to great effect.

One thing about compressing reverb, don't! It will squish the reverb into the track, it's far better to apply reverb after a compressor or limiter. That gives u a much cleaner ring to your reverb, especially if its got a long delay time. Also rolling off the bottom end is a good idea, low-end reverb noises are muddy, so unless you're wanting to achieve an effect with it, just cut it out.

Anyway, just a couple of thoughts. :D
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