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Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:06 pm
by SouNdeX
Ha ha ha ,

These are pointless arguements, who cares what you use and what it does. As they say "BAD WORKMENSHIP ALWAYS BLAME HIS TOOLS".....

I know peeps who still use atari st to make tunes and they shit down my throat!!!

Same with Dj'in if everyone is having a good time then it works for me, I use to be an anti Live boy cause loved vinyl.
But imagine if we were all still using Roland Mc50 or the likes to sequence our tracks!!!! Times move and the best thing is to either move with it or shut it!!

:)

Peace

Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:53 pm
by klarky
Slater wrote:i dont know about any of the lower versions, but i just installed cubase SX3 and it listed ableton 5 (which i already had installed) under Devices.
it doesnt work like reason where you can control the midi through cubase so you still have to sequence everything in ableton. it just means you can use the ableton features to improve a song in cubase, or play an ableton composition through cubase and add to it that way.
like i said, not sure if this works on anything below SX3, but its worth looking into...
if you want to change how the midi works get something like hubiees loop back, output the midi from cue base to hubiees, then select hubies as an input then assign as normal in live, i do this when i rewire reason to live

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:05 am
by Breaka
Geek fight!!!! Horay!!!

I just dont get Ableton. I sit down to do somthing with it. Get some loops a'looping. Add some effects and then I'm just like what the fuck else does it do? Dont get me wrong, I like the way it can put most (not all) loops in time straight away and you can speed em up or slow em down with zero effort. Thats really useful. But It just gets to me how many people I've heard descibe it as 'awesome', 'powerful', and 'amazing'. It just plays loops like what rave ejay does.

I mean all you 'Pro Live' groups. Briefly what goes on when you sit down for a nice live sesh?

B

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:21 am
by shapshankly
Breaka wrote:Geek fight!!!! Horay!!!
B

My Horn Rimmed Glasses power defeats your quantum physics knowledge. phnar phnar.

now where did i put my flux capacitor?

my geekiness reaches new levels everyday.



wrt using the Live live, i basically break down my songs into loops, not commercial songs, my cubase creations, and then i re-construct them live.

i basically just perform more free form versions of my music, and it gives me the ability to drop a break in when there wasn't, or shorten a breakdown or lengthen it. creating new songs from old.

the other thing i've been toying with, and have had some success, is using live to sample a band playing, then completely corrupting some of the music to make new tunes from that. live remixing if you will.

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:41 pm
by Iknowuknow
soundex wrote:Ha ha ha ,

These are pointless arguements, who cares what you use and what it does. As they say "BAD WORKMENSHIP ALWAYS BLAME HIS TOOLS".....

I know peeps who still use atari st to make tunes and they shit down my throat!!!

Same with Dj'in if everyone is having a good time then it works for me, I use to be an anti Live boy cause loved vinyl.
But imagine if we were all still using Roland Mc50 or the likes to sequence our tracks!!!! Times move and the best thing is to either move with it or shut it!!

:)

Peace
Agree, and as for the old 'love me vinyl' it's a pain I have a ton of it, I think it might break my house.
Remember '94 'I'm not using cdjs' now everybody does and it's a sight easyer and more fun.
The fact anybody would think beat matching is inportant tells you were there at as a dj.
I can't wait to get my hands on some mixing software and the crowd couldn't give a shit what your mixing on...even the headz.

It's what comes out not how, move with the times or sulk in a room full of vinyl....it's great to collect has a unique sound and limitations a plenty.

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:08 pm
by Splashmash
Breaka wrote: just gets to me how many people I've heard descibe it as 'awesome', 'powerful', and 'amazing'. It just plays loops like what rave ejay does.

I mean all you 'Pro Live' groups. Briefly what goes on when you sit down for a nice live sesh?

B
Keep at it. Suddenly it'll "click". If it doesn't it's not for you. It doesn't suit everyone.

You can do a lot with those audio loops. Clip automation, setting up algorithmic music using follow actions. Then you got the world of midi clips, vstis and external synths. Instead of a sequencer think of it a a big modular synth. You'll soon realise how to get creative with it.

And minimise use of the arrange view. Live is ALL about session view. Nearly everyone who talks about Live's shortcomings tries to use it like a normal DAW in arrange view. It isn't Cubase or Logic and neither should it try to be - it is a completely different beast.

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:34 pm
by SubtleGestures
Breaka :shock: - do you know how to "cut loops" up? Do you know how to sequence drums..... good lord man - Live is THE dopest drum sampler/machine in the world.

The dopest beats can be made simply by arranging single hits/etc... coupled with fx.... coupled with turning those tracks into clips - bringing those clips back in - chopping more - more fx, etc etc etc.

Use your imagination. It's not going to make music for you if that's what you're after.

THEN, take all of that and apply it to anything - Leads, Bass, Pads, motions, fx - freaking anything dude....


A sequencer is only as good as the producer that operates it.


Cubase - all midi sequencing/sound design
Live - all audio sequencing (where the songs come together)/sound design

can't be messed with

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:54 pm
by SubtleGestures
Splashmash" - And minimise use of the arrange view. Live is ALL about session view. Nearly everyone who talks about Live's shortcomings tries to use it like a normal DAW in arrange view. It isn't Cubase or Logic and neither should it try to be - it is a completely different beast."


Say whaaaaat...... Arrangement view is where it's at.

Session view is simply for getting 'general' ideas laid out - getting sounds ready.

The ease and speed with which audio can be arranged in A. view is unparalleled by anything I've come across... including Cubase SE.


Cubase seems to have more control over some midi functions than Live. Automation in Live is as easy as it gets. The way you navigate in Arrangement view is exact and predictable.... Cubase's navigation when zooming in/etc... is quirky at best.... no where near as solid as Live.

I use Cubase SE for VSTi control - and am thinking about getting SX a year from now when I upgrade my machine again.

Sequencing audio in Live is FAST - sequencing audio in Cubase is cumbersome at best. It's because Cubase has way too many options for doing the simplest of things - where as Live was made to be streamlined and efficient.


Cubase is a bigger beast... and I love it for what it does, but there is no way I'd ever try to sequence an entire song in Cubase.


Even when talking about pure sound design - whether you're effecting midi instruments or audio - when u run shit through fx:

Live has the ability to freely rearrange fx in the chain - Cubase does not.
Cubase has more send fx (yay :lol: ) - Live has unlimited fx capability.

Live easily triumphs over Cubase in that department.


If you own/use Live - and don't use the arrangement view

:lol: :lol:

that's so cute

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:28 pm
by Breaka
SubtleGestures wrote:Breaka :shock: - do you know how to "cut loops" up?
How? They dont give you any sissors!!!!!! :x

Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:44 pm
by shapshankly
ignorance is bliss.

dopamine has the best idea.

i'm fucked because i rely on raw talent to make music and the tools are incidental. just use what works best for you.

i would hazard a guess that most of the people that make good music work in the same way.

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:51 pm
by Splashmash
SubtleGestures wrote: If you own/use Live - and don't use the arrangement view

:lol: :lol:

that's so cute
Glad you find it cute!

One of the great things about Live though is that it is a blank canvas and everyone uses it in different ways.

I would hasten to add though that Live was initially conceptualised as a Live tool, hence the onus on session view. I tend to do most of my work in session view then lay the track out by jamming live with my MIDI conroller and recording onto the arrangement view. Then I go and tweak the final details in arrangement. Working in this way means that I'm building my live set up at the same time as writing tunes. Seriously, there's a lot of power in session view and it's what make Live unique in my opinion/

That said, there is no right or wrong way to work with it, if arrangement is where it's at for you then that's all good. :D

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:53 pm
by Splashmash
Breaka wrote:
SubtleGestures wrote:Breaka :shock: - do you know how to "cut loops" up?
How? They dont give you any sissors!!!!!! :x
ctrl-e is the invisible scissors :D

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:33 pm
by klarky
got to love people who dont RTFM!!!!!

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:39 pm
by Wax equestriaN
i've been using ableton (4 then 5) for about a year now and i fucking love it. !

it does WAY more than E-Jay or fruityloops, so much more that imo this is a comparison that shouldn't even be made

Ableton offers way more control over your sounds than these products.
i'd say it's closer to ACID as a product, but i also think it pisses all over ACID ( and i have used acid as a 'production tool' for years )

I like to use Reason for some bits, but think the sequencer is total pants and have never got on with it

I can't really comment on how it compares to logic/pro-tools as i've never really used them in any depth


In all, when you consider what you can do these days with a fairly bog standard pc, a fairly good bit of software (such as ableton) , a few choice VST plugins and a few bits of hardware for added dirt/human touch factor iot's gobsmacking....you can now knock out some amazing stuff considering the comparitively small cash outlay.

For this reason alone I salute the ableton programmers and think it's money well spent.

sure, it doesn't sound as good as stuff done in a professional studio that cost many thousands to set up, but it never was going to and that really isn't the point.

With a bit of time and care you can get great sounding tracks out of ableton


I'm still learning to do it all really.............
I'm primarily a DJ who has tried teaching himself to produce and am still trying to teaching myself better production techniques.
Each time I use ableton in conjunction with the latest snippet of production tips (usually from peeps in this very forum) , i come away slightly happier with the results i'm getting out of it and feel like i;m making progress.

As far as DJing with Ableton goes, i haven't really explored that side of it. i admit it sounds like you can do some crazy 'live remixy' type stuff with it, but I guess i like DJing with physical round flat things too much , and don't really put the two things in the same bracket. I use ableton to make tracks and then burn them to cd to use in mixsets.

i also think that watching someone move a mouse around and look at a laptop is far less entertaining than watching someone ripping it up on the decks.


as with life, it's each to his own really,
but in short, i think it's a quality product and will continue to use it and recommend it .....

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:34 pm
by shapshankly
Wax equestriaN wrote:i also think that watching someone move a mouse around and look at a laptop is far less entertaining than watching someone ripping it up on the decks.


as with life, it's each to his own really,
but in short, i think it's a quality product and will continue to use it and recommend it .....
i agree about the "checking his emails" scenario, but...

by taking time to setup your template properly and with a good controller you can break free of this problem. if you think about it, using a controller keyboard and the buttons and faders gives you a lot of hands on control. and the amount of time you spend looking at the screen will then only be the same as the time spent looking in the dark at your record bag and then staring hard at the cd deck/turntable to check what's going on.

effectively, when you use live you don't have the puzzled "am i in time?"/"is this the right side?" style look of concentration, you can just get on with doing some creative stuff.

wrt the live remixing, that's fun, but it's not what it is all about.

each to his own is the best way of putting it. agree wholeheartedly.






and i still love slapping a bit of vinyl on and jamming it out!

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:10 pm
by afdafsf
Splashmash - "I would hasten to add though that Live was initially conceptualised as a Live tool, hence the onus on session view. I tend to do most of my work in session view then lay the track out by jamming live with my MIDI conroller and recording onto the arrangement view. Then I go and tweak the final details in arrangement. Working in this way means that I'm building my live set up at the same time as writing tunes. Seriously, there's a lot of power in session view and it's what make Live unique in my opinion"

I hear ya - this is how my friend (the guy that first introduced me to Live) gets most of his songs started.

I never took off to that method - I like mangling clips in arrangement view.


Here's how I do stuff when getting started on a song:

Do plenty of sound desing doodling in Live and Cubase..... render a bunch of stuff from both..... after all the clips have been "readied" - I start pulling those wavs in Live - and start sequencing away. More fx/sound desing is done along the way.

Usually - next thing I know - I end up with 200-500 MB worth of wavs to use in the song.

voila



Breaka - you are hopless son. Like it was said above (CTRL+E) - or.... here's a thought :shock: - resize the clips by hand and rearrange them :shock: wow - that's ground breaking idn't :lol:

Do you know anything about sequencing breaka???

I know everyone has to learn stuff at one point or another, but you stated that you own Logic along with a bunch of other stuff - yet here you are proving that you don't even know how to do the simplest of sequencing tasks.

Did you truly buy all of your software or are you yet another pirate :?:



I didn't mean to get SO pissed in those earlier posts, but fukin a man - it really burns my hide when people try to talk trash about Live because I'm a huge supporter of the software and the people that made it come alive.

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:17 pm
by shapshankly
your support is a nice touch, however, you need to learn and absorb more in the general scheme of things to be able to put forward your ideas in a way that isn't so likely to put peoples backs up.

plus, quite often you don't know as much as you'd like to think.



wrt the scissors comment, i think breaka was taking the piss.

Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:48 pm
by shiftcrack
A few people I know make their beats in arrangement view, placing each hit at a time.... Can produce very good results, but you neeed the patience/dedication.

Anyone else do this?

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:16 am
by shapshankly
i do that sometimes, though in cubase.

in cubase i often chop up percussion and stuff and re-arrange and then recombine in regions.

wrt to programming beats this way, strangely i think it shouldn't be any harder to, after all if you're using midi then you are effectively doing the same thing. the annoyances come when you want to change the envelopes on certain hits and things. that's when something like battery comes into its own.

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:11 am
by dopamine
shapshankly wrote:ignorance is bliss.

dopamine has the best idea.

i'm fucked because i rely on raw talent to make music and the tools are incidental. just use what works best for you.

i would hazard a guess that most of the people that make good music work in the same way.
Did you just call me ignorant? ;)