Mixing Drums for breaks

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stoefln
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Post by stoefln » Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:24 am

grouping your kick,snare,percussions,.. and compressing them with enother comp should make the drummix even more swingin!
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Post by SubtleGestures » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:30 am

Good suggestions from most - I do not understand everyone's willingness to use sidechain compression so willy nilly - sometimes it can be the answer, but most of the time, sidechain compression doesn't sound good - you almost always get a "whooshing" type of effect... when the kick is coming in, the bass and the rest of the low frequencies get brushed to the side for the moment that kick is hitting.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes - it's a great effect to have going on in the song, but most of the time - it just reminds me of how so many house producers use sidechaing c.




"most of my mixes suffer from overcrowding so any advice for helping with this would be most welcome."

Well, I can't believe no one mentioned this, but this is a major BASIC - always pick a KD that goes w/your bass and the rest of your sounds....

As long as you pick a KD that goes with your bass, you'll be fine... maybe a hair of eq will be needed sometimes, but as long as your kick and bassline frequencies are getting along from the very BEGINNING, you'll be more than fine.
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Post by hippy dave » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:31 am

when can we expect amazon to be selling "tam's production tips volume 1"? :D
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Re: Mixing Drums for breaks

Post by nectarios » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:32 am

shapshankly wrote: I've got my individual hits sounding large. snare is bigger than elvis on a toilet and kick is nice and fat too, now, where do i go from here?
You go:
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Post by northernlight » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:34 am

question:

when you group your drums, do you compress the group and then compress the whole track once again?

i did this for sometime but i'm not happy with the results. At the moment i do not compress my drums but then compress the track.

this way the drums sound more natural to my ears and they sit better in the mix. when i double compress them, they seem to get lost under the bassline and melodies.

so i'm doing something wrong when i compress the drums group. anyone got anything to watch out for?
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Post by plazadefunk » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:37 am

tamprecision wrote:Ok so my topic for the day is:

Layering drum sounds.

Indeed layering drum sounds is a great way to make a more interesting drum sound.

So, a few pointers:

When you layer drum sounds its important to check the start points of all your samples. You would be amazed how many supposedly "pro" sample collections are badly edited! by this i mean that the start point is miles of the actual start of the sound

This means when you combine sounds they will probably clash and flam at the start. This sounds GASH. I hear it all the time.

Also another thing is: when your editing the start point of a sample it is better to use your ears than your eyes. Those waveform displays arent all they're cracked up to be.

The thing is that drum sounds dont actually start where the waveform starts. This is a bit of a fucked up concept. There is often a little bit of crap or noise just before the reall impact of the sound. The impact is where you want your sample start point to be.

This isnt always tru, it can make the drums sound a bit wierd if you take too much off.

But it doesnt half make it easier to layer drum sounds.

Also some drum sounds dont need a fast attack. Low frequency kiks often sound better with an attack of like 20 ms. If you combine this with a punchy hi end kik with a very fast attack you have the perfect combo.

Its good to use eq or filters to seperate out your layers. If you have two sounds in the low frequency range they wont combine too well. I often use 1 hi end kik and 1 Lo end kik. The same goes for snares.

Another good trick: make extra keygroups/sample zones and put all your drum sounds from the track on extra notes. Now reverse them all. now you can have all your drums going forwards as well as backwards. Try putting more reverb or delay on the reverse sounds.....

Different effects on different drum layers can be good. In general you can get away with more FX (reverb, delay) on hi frequency sounds. Lo end kik drums sound shite through a big reverb.

Try to combine "real" ie live drum sounds with electronic sounds.

Layer tiny voice samples into your drums. or anything else for that matter. It will stop your tunes sounding like clinical drum machines.

To bring the layers together use either compression or a nice short reverb.

Thats it i cant think of any more.

hope that helps................
Great tips!

Keep them coming Tam!! 8) 8) 8)

Only one request: do you mind posting your tips at 16.50 instead of 8.50, this way I will only have to wait ten minutes to go home and try this stuff and won't be thinking about fucking off work for the next 8 hours? :lol:
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Post by nectarios » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:41 am

SubtleGestures wrote:but most of the time, sidechain compression doesn't sound good - you almost always get a "whooshing" type of effect... when the kick is coming in, the bass and the rest of the low frequencies get brushed to the side for the moment that kick is hitting.
Yes its called lowering everything else for a split second to get the kick/snare out loud and clear and save up on headroom. You don't have to drop everything else by 6dB if you don't want to. You can dial in a higher threshold for a more transparent result that still makes the kick and snare stand out.
SubtleGestures wrote: Don't get me wrong, sometimes - it's a great effect to have going on in the song, but most of the time - it just reminds me of how so many house producers use sidechaing c.
If it's a great effect and you like it, why is it a problem if house producers use it?
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Post by SubtleGestures » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:54 am

It's not - it's just that House producers tend to overuse it to extremes and it usually comes out sounding gash.



Make your song like a normal song - get levels tight..... etc

then limit the entire mix - and you'll always end up with a professional sound



I think I've used compression by itself maybe 10 times in the last year and a half - it doesn't need to be used if you're picking the right sounds and doing a great job on eq, volume, velocity, and filtering. period


compression on vocals - fine

compression on everything else - jesus, why
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Post by alex_virr » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:58 am

buddhaboy wrote:question:

when you group your drums, do you compress the group and then compress the whole track once again?

i did this for sometime but i'm not happy with the results. At the moment i do not compress my drums but then compress the track.

this way the drums sound more natural to my ears and they sit better in the mix. when i double compress them, they seem to get lost under the bassline and melodies.

so i'm doing something wrong when i compress the drums group. anyone got anything to watch out for?
you only need to compress your kik and snare once I reckon. percussion doesn't really require compression particularly if they're on a bus together.

compression is only really necessary on your drum track, bass and vocals.

for overall compression on the whole mix I find PSP vintage warmer is a more natural and warmer plug for beefing it up overall. Or the ultramaximiser perhaps
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Post by nectarios » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:01 am

SubtleGestures wrote: compression on vocals - fine

compression on everything else - jesus, why
Because people like to keep elements that have a wide dynamic range, under control.
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Post by SubtleGestures » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:27 am

why - Dynamics rule - the more the better


Space/Panning/and depth are important features



Obviously, if you're intending on hearing your track on a mono system - then yeah, worry about things like that.
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Post by nectarios » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:32 am

SubtleGestures wrote:why - Dynamics rule - the more the better
If we are talking classic music or jazz, yes. Not if we are talking about dance music that gets played out in clubs.
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Post by 7 below » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:47 am

buddhaboy wrote:question:

when you group your drums, do you compress the group and then compress the whole track once again?

i did this for sometime but i'm not happy with the results. At the moment i do not compress my drums but then compress the track.

this way the drums sound more natural to my ears and they sit better in the mix. when i double compress them, they seem to get lost under the bassline and melodies.

so i'm doing something wrong when i compress the drums group. anyone got anything to watch out for?
Remember that the way compression ratios combine is not linear:

i.e. if you apply a 10:1 ratio once and then again, the effective compression ratio is 100:1 - whopping

so if you're gonna compress the drums altogether after compressing individual sounds make sure you only apply a very small amount of compression otherwise you'll destroy any impact they have...
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Post by SubtleGestures » Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:25 am

I disagree Nec - dynamics play an important role in a piece whether it's classical or dance oriented.


I think shitloads of panning and spatial type efx rule. That's how I'm rolling anyway.


My tracks would sound fucked up on a mono system :lol: .... but I don't worry about it because I'm listening to my stuff on stereo setups.




I don't understood why clubs can't upgrade their setups to stereo so pro producers that get vinyl released can quit worrying about dynamics and panning possibly being an issue on a mono setup.
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Post by nectarios » Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:39 am

I don't think we are talking about the same thing here Chris.
I am talking dB and not stereo spread. Compressors don't limit your stereo image.
For the record, it is important to think about how your tunes will translate on a mono system in case your tunes get played out on the radio. Nothing you should worry about though Chris, since you don't make any music! :lol:
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Post by Joebot » Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:42 am

nec wrote:I don't think we are talking about the same thing here Chris.
I am talking dB and not stereo spread. Compressors don't limit your stereo image.
For the record, it is important to think about how your tunes will translate on a mono system in case your tunes get played out on the radio. Nothing you should worry about though Chris, since you don't make any music! :lol:
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Post by SubtleGestures » Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:50 am

Well, I was talking about volume and panning.


If you incorrectly compress a sound that has varying velicity, you can kill the subtle nuances that make the patch expressive in the first place. I brought up panning because you guys are talking in a "club" sense: I love sounds that go from one side to the other - I LOVE low frequencies that pan (and that's a major "no no" for mono systems and vinyl).

that's all




I'd share if y'all would actually listen.
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Post by Joebot » Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:55 am

go on then
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Post by nectarios » Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:00 pm

If you incorrectly compress a sound, it is your fault, not the compressor's.
The brain starts loosing directonality below 300Hz, so you can't love hearing low frequencies panning, that much, since your brain cant perceive that effect and before you say again that you are special and you can hear it, it is scientifically proven. Maybe you like the different nodes of standing low frequency waves the speakers excite if they are in an assymetrical enviroment (which is the case with most places), that you can perceive, but not the former.


Awww...come on, put a tune on and show me what those soft synths of yours are capable of.
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Post by Joebot » Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:04 pm

i second the motion!
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