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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:27 pm 
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Has anyone been following this? I am surprised and impressed at the way the norwegian courts are handling the trial, and that although his psychiatric state is disputed the assailant is being given an opportunity to present his case. I think this approach is unusual in judiciary processes in the west but fitting because he is not being dismissed as a nutter, and instead questioning his motivations, influences, logic, morality, and all that would cause a young norwegian to commit atrocity against their own. This shows a progressive application of judgement, typical of scandinavian countries.

The lone, mentally unstable gunman image is such an easy one for the media to grasp. By trying him in this way, a much wider discussion on the issues might take place, including how young people interact with governments and policies and what can be changed to avoid the escalation of radicalism and minority-led terrorism. The downside to this open approach of course is that ABB gets to air his opinions, strengthening the platform of the far-right, causing other pliable minds to believe extremist ideologies, and take his example to form a larger organised nationalist movement.

What are people's thoughts? the trial as an elevation of an extremist's beliefs in the media or a process of understanding and discussion on the underlying issues that caused nationalist sentiments to form in ABB's and therefore other impressionable people's heads?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:37 pm 
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totally agree with you, looks to be handled very well indeed

always think the question of sanity is interesting in these cases. part of me thinks that to kill people in that manner, or to be honest most pre meditated murder, must involve a level of 'insanity' for someone to decide on that as a course of action (unless in self defence etc)

i think also examining the situation as they are yet without letting him be broadcast etc is also very sensible

they are indeed very sensible in the scandinavian countries on many things, hence this kind of thing has never happened before (i think?)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:41 pm 
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Agree with most of that tbh.

But the media over here are completely unable to call him a terrorist, he's a mass murderer, insane, etc etc, but he is a terrorist, he has an extreme idiology, and he killed unarmed innocent people with guns and bombs.

The issue for me is it seems we have decided that only Muslims can be terrorists?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:46 pm 
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what they said

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:54 pm 
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i keep reading that normally norway experiences a total of 30 murders a year. there is also definitely a discussion about sanity to be had - for example you could lead a normal social life, be intelligent and well rounded, show empathy, be part of the community and still believe that pink clouds are evil and you whenever you see one you should go underground and wear a tin foil hat.

sanity becomes a talking point when you believe you have the right to employ your own ideologies on the populace - through action on other people, the government, in the media - outside of moral and legal frameworks. does the difference between a civilian and an extremist gunman occur when the decisions on breaking these frameworks occurs at odds to the 99.9% of society's beliefs? gunning down 67 youths is probably not sane in any context, even for political conviction, but one man thought it justifiable in order to prevent a future civil war.

It is clear to us and norwegians that certain things are never done eg. genocide on your own people. yet armies kill other nations' people with the same motivation as this guy i.e. to defend or extend their ideologies or financial progress elsewhere - be it democracy, religion, open market trade, etc. so the political connection is there maybe. there are many differences between wars and what ABB did however, so what punishment should be befitting and what changes to democracy, society, religious morality, the media, open market trade should be made to prevent it from reoccurring? Is the answer, as per columbine and 9/11, be a climate of fear, much tighter security, etc.? or should the response be much more encompassing?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:01 pm 
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CBW wrote:
Agree with most of that tbh.

But the media over here are completely unable to call him a terrorist, he's a mass murderer, insane, etc etc, but he is a terrorist, he has an extreme idiology, and he killed unarmed innocent people with guns and bombs.

The issue for me is it seems we have decided that only Muslims can be terrorists?


He is a madman, not a terrorist

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... e-murderer

vs

He's not a madman, he's a terrorist

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/guy-w ... ure-commit

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:06 pm 
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It is a climate of fear that has created him imo, without the 911 response, he may well be just another pig ig racist.

Atrocities need to be met with justice, and honesty and cohesion, every step of the way the apropriate laws and rights and processes need to be followed.

I believe the Scandinavians have the ability to act like this and are proving so and theyl be better off in the long run for that.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:14 pm 
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if you break it down to the individual and what has led to the act then i think madman/terrorist are not really mutually exclusive

in fact i think they are the same in many cases

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:22 pm 
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To be a mad man I think you need to act on your own, have your own twisted view of the world, this man shares his ideology with untold amounts of people, this war is discussed, these views are shared, there are books and manuals explaining how to make devices, there is a hatred of marxism, which is generally any European that isn't one of them. The u.s.a in Oklahoma, the u.k in soho, brick lane and brixton and now Norway. All have been attacked.

It's terrorism.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:26 pm 
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legally speaking however, madman and terrorist are pretty differently treated. i agree CBW that he is acting as a terrorist for nationalism, however it remains to be seen whether his terrorism is more than conceptually connected to nationalist movements. as far as i can see the people who may champion similar anti marxist and anti immigration views are not armed and prepared to take action outside of the country's laws - only intimidation and incendiary diatribe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_wolf_(terrorism)

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Traditional organizations leave behind much evidence of their activities, such as money trails, and training and recruitment material. Leaderless resistances, as they are as much ideologies as organizations, generally lack such traces. The effects of their operations, globally reported by the mass media, act as a sort of messaging and recruitment advertising.
The internet provides investigators with further challenges. The individual cells (and even a single person can be a cell) can communicate over the internet, anonymously or semi-anonymously publishing and sharing information online, to be found by others through well-known websites. Even where legally and technically possible to ascertain who accessed what, it is often practically impossible to discern in reasonable timeframe who is a real threat and who is just curious, a journalist, or a web crawler.
Despite these advantages, leaderless resistance is often unstable. If the actions are not frequent enough or not successful, the stream of public messages, serving as the recruiting, motivation and coordination drives for other cells, diminishes. If the actions are too successful, the result will be formation of support groups and other social structures—structures vulnerable to network analysis.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:29 pm 
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but to do something that is highly likely to involve you yourself being dead, or in prison for the rest of your life for either religious or political reasons is in itself pretty mad, there are many levels of madness

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:37 pm 
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i think they are probably armed or arming themselves,
Not like Germany in 1938, but just crude, orrable, stuff.

I know exactly what these people are like, most of em are cowards and gobshites, but there's loads of him about.


@Em they are lunatics, mentalists but however we decide to treat them, it should be consistent across race, religion or agenda.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:40 pm 
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his actions were mad in the extreme. can you be mad because you do mad things? and should you tried as insane because the actions you perpetrated were such? i don;t think that is a legal stance that is possible to take because there are rationalities to his life, thoughts and actions. perhaps you could argue he is delusional or psychopathic. he does fit certain criteria for madness, but i don;t think he is as irrational a a person as his actions would lead one to believe. the west's response to 9/11 is clearly an influence on him, as he proclaims al-qaeda to be the most successful terrorist organisation ever, and the reason for this must be what has happened in the US since 9/11.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:57 pm 
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The usa and the world after 911 is a clear indication that if you fail to follow due process, and fail to hold the moral high ground and act responsibly, clearly, inclusively and in proportion.
You end up with a fucking mess.

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